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Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

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Postby Joona » Thu Mar 06, 2008 09:29

As for statistics being the biggest lie of them all, let me tell you a short story of my maternal grand-grandfather. Recently there has been a project to record any possible war crimes in the 1918 civil war.

http://vesta.narc.fi/cgi-bin/db2www/sot ... kuid=30513

That is my grand-grandfather. Now, the statistics tell he was red and a member of the Social Democrat party. They also tell that he was a soldier in the Red Guard.

All but one thing there is utter bullshit. The one thing being he was an SDP member. But after that it breaks down. The truth is that he, like many members of SDP did not support the idea of an armed rebellion and civil war, but wanted to have matters settled in the parliament in a democratic manner.

For that the more fanatic Red Guards labeled him a traitor with the ubiquitous "you're not with us, you are against us". So what did they do? They ratted on him to the Whites, claiming he was a dangerous Red activist. So he got arrested and summarily executed. After that the Reds came gloating to my grand-grandmother and her then early teen children: "So we finally got rid of the guy, eheh heh."

No wonder my grandfather's hatred for Reds was personal, not political. He never was into politics anyway.

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Postby Max Fun » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:03

Lovely... :mrgreen:

Luckily one may nowadays choose Green party. Or then not...
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Postby Joona » Thu Mar 06, 2008 16:55

Well, this gets interesting. After hearing that my father opened up on his grandfather as well. It appears he was a non-affiliated farmer as well. When the civil war came, the Reds wanted to enlist him to the Guard.
Only that my paternal grand-grandfather vehemently refused to bear a rifle against his fellow Finns, no matter what the political shit was. They almost killed him for that, but by some miracle that I am not certain of, he survived the war without a single shot.

Seems like I can be proud of my forefathers, after all.

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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Max Fun » Sun May 04, 2008 18:57

Back to Finns in WW II... By accident I just happened to have a very interesting discussion with three elderly Finnish ladies, who had been born on the Soviet side of the border (Finnish speaking area called Ingria). They all had been young girls, when the Germans invaded the area near Leningrad in WW II.

It was extremely interesting to hear their authentic stories from that side of the border as well before WW II, how they experienced the German arrival, as how they had been tossed around in the Soviet Union after the war. They each had a bit different version, of course, as they were of different ages and also each from a different village. But all their stories had mainly the same core: Before Germans came everything had been basically fine, but after the war the Finns had been treated as traitors (for many had welcomed the Germans) and most had been deported to Siberia.

I was especially keen on how they saw the arrival of the Germans near Leningrad - the very area where the German offensive first came halted. (One of them was from Tikhvin, another from Mga very close to Leningrad; the third was from Valkeasaari just a step from the old Finnish border - half of Valkeasaari even used to belong to Finland; that's the place where the hell broke loose for Finland in 1944.)

The two, who had experienced the arrival of the Germans, told, that they had went to earth holes for cover, and had been waiting there. However, they told there had been no fighting at all, because Germans had been welcomed! I was simply stunned to hear that, because there were massive armies clashing with each other in the nearby! They had just went to those shelters in the evening and in the morning they started hearing foreign language, Germans shouting: "Raus, raus! Rus soldati?" As the Germans noticed they were just the civilians from the village, they let them go. Soon the Germans sent them to Finland, because they were Finns and it was supposedly safer for them in Finland than in that area. (This was in 1941.)

After the Continuation War between Finland and Soviet Union ended in 1944, those poor Ingrians had to be returned to Soviet Union, because they had been born there. Many would have wanted to stay in Finland, ut they couldn't. Some escaped to Sweden. Once returned back home, many of them were sent to Siberia.

Of these three luckily only one had been in Novosibirsk, from where he had run away with her 1-year old baby and moved to Estonia, where friendly Estonians had given her food and a new home. (Figure it out! How long a trip is it from Novosibirsk to Estonia? Several thousands of kilometers. It takes several days even by train, and they had had to move a lot by foot, because they had no passports, money or anything! And undoubtedly there also were militia checking papers on every corner, too!)

The oldest of the ladies had been lucky to marry a Russian soldier, who had got an opportunity to work for reconstruction of the Western Ukraina near Lvov. She mentioned her husband had in fact been in several major battles starting from Moscow (he had been born in moscow), including Stalingrad, all the way to Reichstag in Berlin, where she told he had written his signature. Amazingly he had gone throug all that without getting wounded, although the conditions had been terrible, which had ruined his wealth. He had died at age of 38 years only.

And the third, the youngest of them, had moved to Pitkäranta (ex-territory of Finland) with her mother. She told her mother had first been delighted of getting back, but fell in tears when she had realised what they actually had returned to. The Soviets really gave them no choice but tossed them around as they liked.

Now, in 1993 Finland started accepting those Ingrian Finns back. Soon thereafter they had moved here each from different places, and are now living in this same building as I am. They told there's also a fourth Ingrian Finn here somewhere, but I haven't met with her yet. I'll likely have more of very interesting discussions with them all this Summer.
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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Jarmo Puskala » Sun May 04, 2008 20:06

Max Fun wrote:Back to Finns in WW II... By accident I just happened to have a very interesting discussion with three elderly Finnish ladies, who had been born on the Soviet side of the border (Finnish speaking area called Ingria). They all had been young girls, when the Germans invaded the area near Leningrad in WW II.


Thanks for these interesting stories Max. This part of our past is soon turning from something we all know have gone trough to being just history. And when things turn into history the lessons learned are often forgotten. So writing up the stories and sharing them forward is very commentable indeed. And something I have to admit, I have failed to do often enough.

When you meet the ladies again please tell them regards from us and thank them for sharing their life stories. And if they don't mind, I bet they have lots of things to tell if you keep writing...
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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Max Fun » Sun May 04, 2008 21:14

Jarmo Puskala wrote:When you meet the ladies again please tell them regards from us and thank them for sharing their life stories. And if they don't mind, I bet they have lots of things to tell if you keep writing...

I will.
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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Max Fun » Mon Jun 02, 2008 01:07

Yesterday and today I had again an opportunity to chat with those Ingrian ladies cross the yard. I told them how enthusiastic people are to hear more, and so they kept telling. In fact, now I met a whole lot more of them even. On top of the three I met previous time, now I met four more, although three of them left shortly. However, the fourth new acquiantance sounds like the most interesting of them all...

This fourth one I met today, and she was eager to tell a lot, noticing how interested I was. What makes her story utmost interesting is, that she is a survivor of the Siege of Leningrad! A Finn inside Leningrad in WW II... I'd never have even dreamed of meeting someone such!

When the Germans approached Leningrad, she was three years old. Her mother and grandmother were living in Leningrad, very close to where the Germans stopped. Being a small girl speaking Finnish among the Russians she was being watched by everyone as if she'd have been the worst of the enemies. A true symbol of the evil 'tsuhnas' (rerogatory word meaning Finns), so to say. Her father had been sent to front, of course. Being trapped in Leningrad, they couldn't go anywhere until February 1942, when the ice road (Road of Life) was open on Lake Ladoga. Until then they experienced the misery, which only turned to worse thereafter by the Russians.

Ok, back to Leningrad first. To my astonishment, she told there wasn't that much daily fighting, although they were very near the front!! At nights there was more shooting, but not at daytime. I myself have always thought it must have been pretty continuous fighting in the suburbs of Leningrad for much of the time, but she told different. She explained, that there had been very heavy fights before reaching Leningrad area, but then it pretty much stopped, because the nazis didn't want to destroy the city after all. (Hitler had earlier announced they'd destroy the whole city and not save anyone. That's why the people were desperately literally fighting for their lives in there.).

So, the nazis were sieging, but not attacking the city too heavily, because they ultimately wanted it unruined as a gem. I must say this really was some news to me, at least. I would have expected they'd have used the huge army they had tied up there at least for some militarily useful action! Why not attack towards the Finns again to cut Leningrad completely, for instance? But now, they wasted time and troops waiting.

She also told the fleeing people from all around Leningrad came to those areas they were living in. Being hungry, they ate everything they could get. Their dog was gone. Their cat was gone. Her mother had to keep the doors locked all the time, because people would have taken anything they could - even the children! She told some people literally tried to buy children. Yes, for food! And people did eat dead people, because there wasn't else - cats and dogs had gone already.

Now, I asked about how they were evacuated. She started laughing at the word "evacuated"...

It really wasn't evacuation. It was encampment... Or would you expect an evacuation to be such, where soldiers come with rifles and bayonnets to push you out of your home immediately without any warning nor possibility to take any valuables with you? A 3-year-old girl, her mother and sister and a 73-year old grandmother were pushed forward as prisoners along the Road of Life, then to a train and cattle wagons, and sent directly to Siberia as gulags... Sure, they must have been the worst possible criminals - for speaking Finnish!

In Siberia there had happened on several occations, that soldiers had attempted to separate them. Her mother stuck to her and her sister, telling they are her children and she'll go to death with them. So they got to a gulag camp by the Arctic sea on river Lena. That's like the most uninhabitable place on Earth one can imagine. Temperature may fall as low as -70 degrees centigrade! And she told there was snow like as much as a height of a two storey building... But their grandmother wasn't as lucky. At some point all the elderly were gathered elsewhere, and they never saw nor heard anything of their granny anymore.

About the prison camp on Lena she told, that before them there had already come lots of Jews to that camp. That was lucky for them, because the Jews had rich friends in the USA, who sent them help. And the Jews were very helpful, so they also helped the others a lot. Being educated people, the Jews soon organised the camp and became natural leaders. There also were lots of Carelians, Estonians, Votes, Lithuanians and Yakutians at the camp. Being in a desperate place everyone was helping each other. And all the children were playing together, although they couldn't understand each others' language. (Following the modern very egotastic western style of life, I must tell I'm not exactly very much appreciating it in comparison with such Russian prison camp co-operative style of life...)

Both she and the other Ingrian lady, who had lived in Lvov (in Ukraine; having married a Russian soldier she was the only one not sent to Siberia), agreed things Stalin had done sending people to prison camps were horrible. But on the other hand, they both also agreed, they had experienced something unique and valuable meeting so many different people, and having seen there are always people who want to help - even at desperate times and places.

Now, one more thing about the Winter war. The ladies told, that they had always been taught Finland was the attacker. Of course, they didn'ty believe it, but that's how things were always told in the Soviet Union. As the propaganda went, the Soviets weren't prepared, when the 'tsuhnas' attacked. Still... Stalin had planned and started building several new airfields near Leningrad for (offensive) military purposes before WW II already, but they hadn't been finished by WW II. Now, the sister of the fourth lady had went to see their old home afterwards. She found their tiny apple tree where their home had been. But now there was a massive concrete air field on top of the rest...

PS. I think it's just appropriate to add some photo reminding of the Siege of Leningrad. Here's the famous picture of a man in Siege of Leningrad with his daily ration on his hand: http://it.stlawu.edu/~rkreuzer/pcavallerano/hunger.jpg
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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Max Fun » Mon Jun 02, 2008 20:36

One more Ingrian lady interviewed...

This one was another one from Valkeasaari on the Carelian Isthmus, only half a kilometre from the Finnish-Soviet Union border. Actually she was even from the very same village as one I already interviewed before. They were both, together with several other Ingrian ladies, sitting on our frontyard in a sunny weather today. This one had been born in 1925, so she had been 14 years old, when the Winter war began. (The other one had been 8.) And yes... They only lived about 10 kilometres away from the Mainila village, from where Soviets claimed Finns had fired with cannons. How come, their homes had been filled with Soviet troops at the time... (They weren't ever evacuated. Why would that have been necessary, when the Soviet Union was actually gonna attack forward, towards Finland from that point...?)

The stories of these two ladies is interesting in them being from the very narrow Soviet area, which belonged to Soviet Union before the war, but which Finland conquered in Continuation war. Now, this lady told most interestingly about the time in Continuation war, when the Finns conquered their village. (Finns passed the old border a bit to secure the border.) At the time the fighting came near, they went to earth holes (A cellar, I guess.) and waited there. Soviets didn't bother evacuating them, as they did evacuate neghbouring Russian villages, and having an old granny and small children, their family couldn't leave. Soviet soldiers threatened to cast a bomb in the cellar, unless they left, however, but they stayed nevertheless. (Pretty much the same story as the other lady told before.)

After the Soviets had left, Finns arrived without major bombing, but there was constantly firing around, bullets flying criss-cross and bombs being dropped, which could have hit them any time. Finns told them, that they could stay, if they wished, but they could move to a safer place in Central finland, if they preferred so. Seeing it was so dangerous in the middle of the bullets near the border, they decided to leave. They packed some of their valuables on a carriage, hid much of what they couldn't take under their cattle shield, took a horse and their cattle and left through the woods in heavy Autumn rain. Somewhere in the forest their wagon went broken, and they had to throw away practically everything, because they couldn't carry things by themselves.

One morning they woke up and noticed their elderly and the small children were gone. Only the young were there. The Finnish soldiers told not to worry, because they'd be transported another route. But the young were told to travel directly by themselves. As promised, somewhere in Central Finland they were again together. They lived in Finland during the war, but had to return to Soviet Union after the war like all the other Ingrians, too. However, this lady was lucky and didn't get sent to Siberia. (I didn't ask why, yet. I was short of time, but I'll ask her for more later.)

One more interesting detail. I told these ladies, that I've once met a man, who was about 10 years old at that time and lived at Valkeasaari on Finland's side of the old border during the war. (Valkeasaari had been divided by the border.) The man oftenused to be playing on a high hill near the coast of Gulf of Finland there. That hill was a place, where officers often went to observe the air-combat between the Soviet and German planes above Leningrad in the distance. (He told it resembled a swarm of mosquitos, because there were so many planes fighting in the air constanly! Once a Soviet aeroplane had come and started firing at him while he - a 10-year old boy! - had been playing there even.) The ladies immediately recognized the hill he had been telling about! Obviously that hill must be locally pretty noticeable.

Edit: a "minor" typo...
Last edited by Max Fun on Tue Jun 03, 2008 14:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Julian » Tue Jun 03, 2008 00:07

But on the other hand, they both also agreed, they had experienced something unique and valuable meeting so many different people, and having seen there are always people who want to help - even at desperate times and places.


You can brainwash it.
You can freeze it with fear.
You can lull it with bread and circuses.
You can bury it under an avalanche of merchantile mentality.

But you CANNOT *kill* the human spirit!!

Ladies of Ingria, I salute you. May your names and your memory endure forever.

Kiitos, Max.
P-Liitto ei antaudu koskaan!!
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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Kartoffelkopf » Tue Jun 03, 2008 07:07

Max Fun wrote:How come, their hoes had been filled with Soviet troops at the time...


Their what? ;)
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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Max Fun » Tue Jun 03, 2008 14:08

Kartoffelkopf wrote:
Max Fun wrote:How come, their hoes had been filled with Soviet troops at the time...


Their what? ;)


I believe that was correct. I don't admit a mistake. :P
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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Kartoffelkopf » Wed Jun 04, 2008 06:45

o_O


Their hoes?

That makes 0% sense.

Don't you mean 'holes'?
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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Max Fun » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:32

Could have been 'hoses' just as well... :wink:

Oh, and I learned more again yesterday, but I was too tired to write it down yet. Let's say shortly the most interesting single term they told: "Musta varis" ('black crow' in Finnish). That's how the folks called the KGB guys (or whoever), who suddenly appeared in a black car (that's the namesake for the call name) and took people away without any reason, mostly in the evenings. "Musta varis kävi naapurissa." ('Black crow visited neighbours.'") was a far too common a phrase in the Soviet Union in Stalin's era. One day they might have appeared knocking the door and taken the father, another evening the son. No reason was ever given. People could really never know, when and who would be the next.

One of those Ingrian ladies told, how her father went to work one day in 1930's, and never returned. He was at work with the Soviet railways near the Finnish border. They tried to find out what happened to him, and asked all prisons in Leningrad and nearby, but no sign was found. But from that on they were being treated as traitors for being family of a traitor, however! That's why they couldn't move to Leningrad when they applied for that. Only in the 1990's, more than 50 year later during the perestroika someone adviced them to write to someone in Moscow, and they were told their father had been innocent. He had been kept in one of those prisons they had inquired about him, but nothing had been told about him irrespective. And, as you might have guessed, they had shot him...
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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Max Fun » Sun Jun 08, 2008 18:30

One more little thing the eldest of these Ingrian women told, from the era when she was living in the German occupied Soviet Union, in the town called Mga near Leningrad (1941.43).

The Germans had hidden their oil supplies underground in barrels near the place where they lived. Somehow the Soviets had found out the storage, and came bombing the exactly correct place.

She told she saw how the explosions flew the oil barrels high in the air, spreading the flaming oil everywhere all over the people beneath. (I don't know, whether it was just soldiers or also civilians, but I assume both.) I cannot but imagine that as a sort of "napalm bombing of the WW II", although hardly planned exactly as such. She told she had seen even more horrible things, but she stopped telling right there. It was obviously a hard piece even telling that.

(It might be better collecting these Ingrian stories under another topic, but telling these originated here, so i'll keep posting these stories here until someone will split this or kick my balls to the Moon for telling...)
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Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby Joona » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:10

Max... You oughta write a book about it. The Ingrians have the story, and you have the talent to write it down.

Joona

P.S. Edit: napalm was invented and used in WW2 already. By Yanks. Who else? Even nazis weren't that evil.
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