Star WreckIron SkyCommunityVideosStore

Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Discussions related to Energia's next film.

Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby shadow11 on Tue Sep 11, 2007 06:07

Hi, I just found out about this movie recently and well, since it involves nazis and a crazy sci-fi plot im going to keep an eye on this :).

Now for my question. What exactly was Finland's role in the Second World War? It just surprised me that Finland would make a movie dealing with WW2 since they considered themselves fighting 3 separate wars.
shadow11
Raumanwärter
Raumanwärter

 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 05:47

Postby Timo Vuorensola on Tue Sep 11, 2007 06:53

Now there's a fine question indeed. I think somebody has time to give a more precise answer, but in short, Finland fought against Russia during the whole time, beat them once but then got greedy and got bitchslapped by them. The Winter War is the most famous Finnish war, and Wikipedia has a pretty good entry on that subject.

Now Finland and Nazi connections, that's always been a bit tricky part in our history. It's widely known that Nazis did help us out here and there in a war against Russians, but then again, Nazis also burned the northern parts of Finland while retreating. Finland and Nazis were never officially partners in war, and our president/general during that time, Mannerheim, hated Hitler deeply, but was "forced" to work with him a bit.

But in general, Finns were not a big player in wartime, but did put up pretty well against all the enemies, and really did some heroic stuff during the Winter War.

But maybe somebody an expert in Finnish war history could come up with more precise description.

Timo.
Deus absconditus.
Deus nullus deus.
Deus nisi deus.
Timo Vuorensola
Director
Director

User avatar
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:08
Location: Tampere, Finland

Re: Unusual question involving WW2 and Finland

Postby anon. on Tue Sep 11, 2007 19:35

shadow11 wrote: 3 separate wars.


Thats true. After Winter War 1940 peacy treaty was signed in Moscow.
1944 new treaty was done and it required that German troops should leave during two weeks. It was of course impossible (German had nearly 200 000 troops in Lapland) at first retreating was done peacefully but when Soviet persons in Finland heard that they demanded to start hostilities to drive Germans out from Finland. So called Lapland war started. Last enemies moved from Finland 27.4.1945 and actions of war against German were over.

shadow11 wrote:

Now for my question. What exactly was Finland's role in the Second World War?[/quote]

Winter war was mainly just Soviets attemp to get land between their own country and possible enemies in name of their security. Finland didn´t agreed to hand over demamded areas (probably we would have been just conquered like Estonia after it made admissions for Soviet Unions demands. When negotiation didn´t move on as Soviet leaders had expected they started war against Finland. False picture of Finland´s inner problems was so glaring that many enemy troops didn´t even expect resistance. We held up for 102 days (military supplies, ammunition etc wouldn´t have last more than few days maybe week) and although military help was offered in the last days by French and United Kingdom it was decided to better accept peace offer by Stalin. New terms were harder than those old demanded before war but our independence wasn´t lost.

I´ll continue later...
anon.
Sturmmann
Sturmmann

User avatar
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:53

Postby Timo Vuorensola on Thu Sep 13, 2007 13:21

Here is a pretty precise essay for the question by our history expert / researcher, mr. Mikko Sillanpää. He asked me to post this here, but he might also join the discussions if he has time.

Thanks, Mikko, for a very good answer!

"Now for my question. What exactly was Finland's role in the Second World War? It just surprised me that Finland would make a movie dealing with WW2 since they considered themselves fighting 3 separate wars."


Well, there are several points of view one could take in order to answer this question. Maybe I should start by pointing out, and I really don't mean to sarcastic or anything like that, about the sentence after the actual question: it's not Finland, but some Finns (and perhaps people of other nationalities too) who are making the movie. That's of course very obvious, but in the same it's an important point because in Finland, as in other countries too, there are differing opinions about the war.

That leads us into the question of contemporary experience. During the war undoutably some Finns have felt that they were not fighting alongside Germany, and some Finns have felt that they did exactly that. There were also some Finns who felt they were now fighting for real the war that was never officially fought during 1917-1921 period in Eastern Karelia, to liberate Karelians first from Russia's control, then from Soviet control. It could be argued for example that Mannerheim felt this way when he issued his infamous general directive in the beginning of Continuation War, where he more or less said that he wouldn't stop fighting until Karelia would be free again. Also there were Finns who felt that they were fighting against Soviet aggression all the time. And on top of it all, many common men probably were fighting to save their way of life against soviet way of life, or simply because they had fight.

So what we are looking here is the very diverse political, ideological, historical, nationalistic and other views about what people thought why they were fighting. In literature there's a fine description about war written by Väinö Linna, named as Tuntematon sotilas (Unknown Soldier), where people from different parts of Finland and from different social backgrounds are part of same unit during the war. The famous last words of the book are roughly translated as "What a shitty trip that was, but it's over now" and that should reflect with some accuracy the general feeling Finns had about the war: it was something that they didn't want, but they had no choice.

There's evidently some duality about the Finnish attitude towards the war. On the other hand it's evident that most Finns felt that they were fighting separate wars, but on the other hand, those wars would have not taken place without World War itself. And like they it or not, Finland did have a role to play in WW2 in general. Let's look at the three wars more closely.

The Winter War during Winter of 1939-1940 was the first one. The background for it comes from Hitler's wish to ally with Soviet Union in order to gain free hands against France and UK, that lead into the infamous Molotov-Ribbentrop contract, that defined the spheres of influence for both Soviet Union and Germany, i.e. zones where each country could act freely without fear of armed intervention of another. Finland had the bad luck to be in the Soviet zone. Soviet Union didn't hesitate too long to grab the promised zone under it's control, but one could say with some justification that it did so in order to protect it's own interests.

It really comes down into what is considered as justified actions in the sphere of international relations, and especially what is justified from different points of view. Thirllingly excellent book about this subject is written by J.K. Paasikivi, who was the main negotiator from Finland to Soviet Union from the Autumn 1939 throughout 1941. He is also, in my opinion, one greatest statemen Finland has ever had. In any case Paasikivi makes a point, that at the situation of 1939 it seems that superpowers simply cannot take into account the points of view of smaller nations, because of the aggressive other superpowers.

Paasikivi also speaks about Russian national character and also about the point of view of Soviet Union regarding the other superpowers. In short, the Western countries had made a good effort to prevent Soviet Union taking shape by sopporting White troops during and after WW1, and in the period between the wars made their best to ignore and isolate Soviet Union. Germany on the other hand was in the hands of very aggressive dictator, Hitler, and was probably making preparations against Soviet Union with approval of if not alliance from Japan, which had been aggressive towards gaining new land from Siberia. So, from Soviet point of view, just about whole world would be against them, and they really wanted to keep their options open by having Baltic Sea route secured, and especially keep their second largest city Leningrad (St. Petersburg) protected.

Paasikivi understood these points of view, but Finns generally didn't felt too good about demands Soviet Union made in the negotiations, which is very understandable from Finnish point of view. One of the best agricultural areas, with one of largest city of Finland, Viipuri, and especially important forest-industry was situated in the area that Soviet Union demanded to be given to them for protection of Leningrad. Stalin, while being frustrated about the negotiations that weren't going anywhere once excalated: "But for geography even Finns cannot do anything!" meaning, that whatever basis Finns had for their refusal, Soviet Union couldn't give up demands for that simple reason.

Also a huge impact to the failure of the negotiations was the very negative attitude Finns in general had towards Russians and Soviet Union. The russification measures, that eventually lead into Finnish declaration of indepence and Russia's / Soviet role in the following War of independence were too recent event, there just couldn't be any sympathy towards Soviet Union, and very probably most Finns would have been delighted to see Soviet Union to get into trouble with Germany, while not sympathisizing with nazis in general. Note that Finns didn't know about the secret addition to the Molotov-Ribbentrop contract and were sure that Germany would come to our aid should Soviet Union start a war! Also Finnish cabinet did not take Soviet demands too seriously and thought all the time that there would be more time for negotiations.

And thinking all this from Soviet point of view: they were in hurry of building their army and securing zone of influence, and since the negotiations weren't seem to lead into anything positive, it was quite logical for Stalin to decide to take with force what the negotiations would not bring. There were good reasons for this decision. First of all Germany would most probably lift even a finger about it, and Red Army had twice as more tanks, planes and guns than the rest of world together had at that point. Even in the city of Leningrad there were more people living than in whole Finland. What an Earth a poor and very ill-equipped small country at the periphery of Europe could possibly do against Soviet Army? And even then Soviet Union played it safe by putting several hundreds of thousands of men, thousands of tanks and hundreds of airplanes against Finland, which could mobilize at maximum 20 airplanes, 20 tanks and some tens of thousands of men. Generally force relation 2:1 is considered as strategical advantage that leads more or less automatic victory, Soviet Union had in the start of the Winter War a general force relation about 4:1 in men, and something like 100:1 in the artillery, tanks and airplanes. One could even say that they very ridiculously well prepared. At the end of Winter War with Soviet reinforcements and Finnish losses, force relation was nearer to 20:1 at the crucial sectors of the front.

It's not needed to go details of the Winter War campaigns, suffice to say that at the beginning of it there weren't enough uniforms for men, they had to fight in their civilian clothing, and at the end of it Finland had used almost all of it's ammunition reserves. While Soviet Union had put over 1,5 million men in line with losses about 400 000 men. Stalin was in hurry to end the war, and terms of peace were more or less the same that Soviet Union had demanded in the negotiations during the Autumn, however with some heavy additional punishments on top of it.

The importance of Winter War for the general history of the WW2 is that Hitler came to underestimate Soviet strength, it was after all very embarrassing "win" for Red Army. Of importance is also that general judgement about peace terms in Finland was very negative, Finns felt after all that they had won at the battle field but lost at the negotiation table. Also the hesitation and sloth of Western powers was evident. They were not willing to help Finland until it was too late, and Finnish reading of this was that it was deliberate policy from France and UK to offer too little too late and therefore leave Finland alone in practice even while saying rosy things at the negotiation tables. The result of Winter War then was quite direct: the lust for revenge was born. For Soviet Union result was more or less embarrassing, altough the prime target had been achieved, Leningrad had now strategically much safer positon. Price was too high, but it was not Stalin's habit of crying about spilt milk. However in Red Army some huge changes were taking place according to the lessons learned from Winter War. For Germany there was additional bonus besides of getting some new information about performance of Red Army and weakening it, Germany could be sure to have a warm support from Finland when the time would come to turn against Soviet Union.

The year or so between Winter War and Continuation War were for Finland time for practically total rebuild of military that was very much had been neglected during the leftist governments of 1930's. As Western allies were hard-pressed to sell any equipment, they needed themselves too much, the only choice was Germany, but even from there not too much equipment could be bought since Hitler didn't want to turn openly against Stalin. However some serious work was done in re-armament, and general feeling was positive towards it, after all many thought that as soon as international tensions would be lessened, Soviet Union would turn back to Finland and finish the job by capturing the rest of it too. There was no practical chance of any construction of relationships between Finland and Soviet Union.

The Continuation War actually started by Soviet Union declaring war. The Finns themselves were hesitant to start it, but it could be said with a justification that it was only matter of time, once Germany would have made impressive progress against Soviet Union, Finland would have declared war. At the first pace of Continuation War Finnish troops gained some very impressive areas, but were unable to inflict strategic losses to the Soviet troops. Pre-Winter War borders were crossed at some points, but generally only to shorten the front. When it came to the prime reason for Hitler to try to get Finland as his ally, capture of Leningrad, all Finnish leading politicians and military men were against it. Mannerheim simply noted in some discussion, that even while Germany might win this war, Russians would forever be Russians and never forgive Finns if we were to capture Leningrad. So Finnish offensive was halted at the gates of Leningrad. This did not please Germany at all, but in the same German offensive was going on so well, that it seemed more or less irrelevant, Germany was sure to capture the city by its own. It is theorhetical question that would it been possible for Finnish army to capture Leningrad. General consensus seems to be that it would have been, altough urban area fighting later in Stalingrad was proved to be very difficult for attacker.

In any case at the Autumn of 1941 the Finnish front froze into positions that were to last more or less the same until 1944. Finns neither made any attempts to attack Kola peninsula and towards Murmansk harbour that was very vital for Soviet Union. That is the reason Hitler sent his Northern Army to Lapland, but battles there proved to be very difficult, and the German troops didn't make much progress. The importance of Leningrad was not central for the operations in the German Eastern front. The war in the East was decided in other fronts, especially at Moscow front and the Southern Front. However Finnish troops did tie down some Soviet Troops and freed Germany's troops for operations in some other areas. It is very probable that Soviet Union would have conquered Finland to gain better access to the Baltic Sea and thus to the soft back of Germany, so war between Finland and Soviet Union was inevitable when Germany attacked into Soviet Union because Finns would have never freely given Soviet access to the Finnish naval bases.

It is to be noted that Finland never was allied with Germany during the war, thus it was never part of the Axis, altough fighting against common enemy and recieving military support from Germany especially. During Continuation War Finland recieved some very important weapon shipments from Germany, altough only a fraction from what was promised. When the war in the East was clearly not succesful, Hitler started to demand official contract to be signed between Finland and Germany. For some time Finland was able to put up excuses but eventually Germany stopped weapon shipments to Finland to put real pressure on the issue. Then Finnish president R. Ryti gave his solemn word to Hitler that Finland would not make separate peace with Soviet Union behind Hitler's back. Hitler thus recieved clear enough declaration from Finland and weapon shipments continued, while Finns legally weren't tied by any contract. It was deliberate sham from the president R. Ryti. When the German situation was evidently doomed and Germany irrationally decided of making no peace negotiations with Soviet Union, Finland was forced to seek peace with Soviet Union. President R. Ryti resigned his office, thus making it clear that his word was no longer binding Finnish cabinet and peace negotiations were started. At first the negotiations were slow, but after suffering horrendous losses in the Soviet attack of 1944, Finland had to accept even harsher peace terms that after Winter War. But even in this defeat Finns were lucky. No other nation recieved a possibility to keep it's independence after war against Soviet Union. Stalin was in hurry to free his forces from Finnish front to the race towards Berlin, but it could also be hypotized that Stalin felt genuine respect towards Finns and especially towards Mannerheim, whom was practically only one of the leading Finns to keep his freedom after the war.

Soviet Union also made a demand of Finland actually driving away German troops by fighting from Lapland, even while Finnish and German troops had made gentleman's agreement that German troops would withdraw and Finnish troops would follow without actual fighting. Finns were then made to brake this agreement and start actual fighting in Lapland, which was to become the third war during the WW2 for Finns. Germans practically burned every city and town in Lapland as revenge, but the German troops were expelled in time.

For Germany the Finnish peace with Soviet Union and consequently the war in Lapland had no real meaning anymore. Germany was hopelessly lost the war already in 1942-1943 Eastern Front fighting. For Soviet Union it meant freeing some forces against already beaten Germany. For Finland it meant keeping of the independence rather than losing it by fighting too long after the defeat had already happened. For world history it would have some meaning in that the 1944-1945 first steps were taken in the new chapter of Finnish-Russian relations which proved during the cold war, that communistic and capitalistic states could live in peace with each other.

When viewed against this background your question about making a movie related to WW2 theme by Finns hopefully shows first of diverse contemporary experience during and after war, but also that even while Finns generally felt fighting their own wars, those wars were tied tightly into the contexts of WW2 itself. This complicated legacy of the war perhaps gives Finns an unique perspective to the WW2, since for Finns there weren't any great left vs. right ideological battles to be fought, rather than battles for survivor of Finnish independence and therefore Finnish culture. For most Finns Hitler and Stalin were equal crooks, but Hitler just happened to be our side, note that we weren't on his side, while Western powers were conveniently neutral during our time of need. Things being as such I think Finns could give a very interesting contribution to the ever happening re-interpretation of WW2 legacy. What happens with this movie remains to be seen :-)

Mikko Sillanpää
Deus absconditus.
Deus nullus deus.
Deus nisi deus.
Timo Vuorensola
Director
Director

User avatar
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:08
Location: Tampere, Finland

Postby crocket01 on Thu Sep 13, 2007 14:13

So basicaly you were stuck betwen a rock an a hard place and did what you culd to survive . I just seen war movies were Finns chace Russians r Germans on skis dwn hills . Truble is what ever cuntry makes war films it nly gloryfy its own side and not say about the peple and cuntrys dragged into it .As i see it if yu tried remain nutral you been attacked by Russia and Germany and unlike England you havdn't channel to stop them
i laughthing so it must be good
crocket01
Raumanwärter
Raumanwärter

User avatar
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 17:31

Postby Esko Suomi on Thu Sep 13, 2007 17:53

crocket01 wrote:So basicaly you were stuck betwen a rock an a hard place and did what you culd to survive .


Pretty much sums perfectly what we Finns are. Or should be.
Moderating for the good of everyone since 2002, retired in the summer of 2008
Esko Suomi
Moderator
Moderator

User avatar
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 21:33
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Postby shadow11 on Thu Sep 13, 2007 18:22

Thank you guys for the information. Yeah, I didn't mean that Iron Sky was being produced by the entire country, but that was an error on my part haha!
shadow11
Raumanwärter
Raumanwärter

 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 05:47

Postby Jarmo Puskala on Fri Sep 14, 2007 01:38

Oh and I forgot to mention that there's more about this in our blog.

..never ask Finns about war unless you're prepared for several essays...
Jarmo Puskala
Writer
Writer

User avatar
 
Posts: 1852
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 21:10
Location: Tampere, Finland

Postby Laurentius on Fri Sep 14, 2007 18:41

There was just a couple of details in the essay that IMHO need clarification.

During the year between Winter War and Continuation War, the Soviet Union actively put pressure on Finland in various ways - shooting down a passenger aircraft, probing the borders, even stating which presidential candidates they would accept to run in the elections (with the implication that a non-approved candidate would be casus belli). Thus, while it was risky business, allowing German troops "holiday transport" through officially neutral Finland in exchange for trade (mainly for weapons and food) would give some sort of security against the Soviets at least in the short term. Even German military presence was seen preferable to a Soviet occupation. Long-term relations with France, UK etc. were not exactly a pressing concern since they had already denied their assistance and were presently losing the war against Germany.

With 20/20 hindsight, the decision proved to be right - towards the end of 1940, Soviet foreign minister Molotov personally visited Berlin and demanded that Soviet Union should be given free hands to "complete solving the Finnish question" as agreed in the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty. Naturally, he was declined - since Hitler already had other plans concerning Finland.

As for Finnish moods during the war, few Finns (except the extremist fringe) had much illusions about Hitler: the whole co-belligerence affair was often described as "asking the Devil to drive avay the Satan". Also, even though Finland had "recently" fought a civil war in 1918 between communists and loyalists, even Finnish communists preferred to fight for Finland, because most of those who had emigrated to Russia, either fleeing in 1918 after their defeat, or going voluntarily afterwards, got caught in Stalin's purges in the late 1930's, with less than one-tenth surviving. So there was no reason to assume that Finns in Finland, communists or not, would be treated any better.

It's a long story, but unfortunately, the situation was so far from straightforward that it is impossible to explain it briefly.
Laurentius
Rottenführer
Rottenführer

 
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:18
Location: Finland

Postby Jarmo Puskala on Fri Sep 14, 2007 20:22

Be careful now, there is always the danger of this talk leading to discussion on finnish-soviet relations during the cold war...
Jarmo Puskala
Writer
Writer

User avatar
 
Posts: 1852
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 21:10
Location: Tampere, Finland

Postby Laurentius on Fri Sep 14, 2007 21:10

Yes, but we will keep it in the WW2 time, won't we? :lol:
Laurentius
Rottenführer
Rottenführer

 
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:18
Location: Finland

Postby shadow11 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 21:56

wow, I didn't expect my post to generate all this :D
shadow11
Raumanwärter
Raumanwärter

 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 05:47

Postby beget on Mon Sep 17, 2007 20:08

Here's a funny little detail concerning Finland in the second world war. The following countries declared war on Finland, even though not really doing anything about it:

United Kingdon
Canada
Australia
New Zealand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war
beget
Raumanwärter
Raumanwärter

 
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 20:04

Postby Timo Vuorensola on Mon Sep 17, 2007 22:09

If they forgot to fight the war, I sure do hope they still rememberd to undeclare the war.
Deus absconditus.
Deus nullus deus.
Deus nisi deus.
Timo Vuorensola
Director
Director

User avatar
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:08
Location: Tampere, Finland

Postby Cyborgerous on Mon Sep 17, 2007 23:55

I guess they all ratified the Paris Peace Treaty. At least UK did so, as well as Australia and Canada

Embassy of Finland, Ottawa wrote:The Paris Peace Treaty was ratified by the Parliament of Canada on September 19, 1947 and Finland's enemy status was rescinded.


AUSTRALIAN TREATY SERIES, Australian Government Publishing Service wrote:Treaty of Peace with Finland

(Paris, 10 February 1947)

Entry into force generally: 15 September 1947

Entry into force for Australia: 10 July 1948


Didn't dig deep enough to find anything about New Zealand ratifying it, but I'd guess they've done it too.
Don't blame me though, if you aren't alert enough when the New Zealander troops make their surprise strike...
World Domination is Fun!
Cyborgerous
Sturmmann
Sturmmann

User avatar
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 00:43
Location: Near the place where Niagara falls

Next

Return to Iron Sky

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]